The following header lines retained to affect attribution:
|Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:02:38 -0500
|Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project
|From: "Y&Y, Inc." <[log in to unmask]>
|Subject: Re: portable LaTeX
|To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L
|At 09:44 AM 98/12/20 , Randolph J. Herber wrote:
|>I repeat and stand by my original statement ``Adobe PostScript level 1 is
|>a requirement _from considerations of portability_.'' I work daily with
|>scientists scattered around the planet with problems generating, displaying
|>and printing Abode Postscript language files and Adobe PDF. In the interest
|>of portability, Adobe PostScript level 1 language files using internal
|>supplied fonts or the ``original'' 13 fonts (4 each Times-Roman, Helvetica
|>and Courier and Symbol) with proper DSC is the _only_ in-practical-fact
|>portable format.
|This merely reflects lack of knowledge of how to produce reliable PDF files.
|Or lack of access to a system that can produce reliable PDF files.
Your response merely reflects lack of knowledge and understanding of ``real
world'' support issues. The world is not going to replace their systems
which they perceive as good and functional with some special purpose
system whose significant attribute is that it ``can produce reliable PDF
files.'' If the reason that I can not remember when I last saw a
functional PDF file is a general lack of knowledge among the creators and
authors or a general lack of competent software for creating PDF, then
that alone is a good reason not use PDF; presently, it is too hard or
too expensive to get right.
|Like good PS, it is non-trivial, and while we now forget how much education
|was required about PS in the beginning, the same is true about PDF.
|Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters so we
|now have a bit of a struggle working around bugs in PDF Readers -
|including unfortunately the ones from Adobe. But it can be done.
I have extensive support troubles with Adobe PostScript language also.
I have owned my own personal Abode PostScript printer, a NEC LC890,
for about a decade. I regularly handwrite Adobe PostScript code,
sometimes multipage reports complete with linedrawing graphics. The
problems I have and have had are nothing like the problems I have had
trying to support my user communities at CDF, Fermilab and around the
world when Adobe PDF is used.
|>The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert
|>it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it
|>frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to language
|>level 1. Nothing else works reliably.
|Really? Before we had PDF we had endless threads on how useless PS is
|because so many clone PS interpreters fail...
Yes, really. It is necessary to use the lowest commonly available
resources. It is unreasonable to demand that printers be upgraded
to level 2 or 3 Adobe PostScript language. Many are using level 1
printers and will continue to use those printers until they can not
be economically repaired (which takes sometimes a very long time in
places like Russia and the other countries located within the former
USSR, the Peoples' Republic of China, Vietnam, and so forth and a
surprisingly long time elsewhere). Those who are using Ghostscript
as a RIP for other classes of printers, such as HP Laserjet compatibles,
ink jet or dot matrix are, in some sense more fortunate; they can
replace more easily their RIP. I understand their experience; I
started doing Adobe Postscript language files via Ghostscript to a
Nec P6 Pinwriter. There are very few printers which will print PDF
directly. The PDF has to be converted to something else first,
usually Adobe PostScript language. Why not just distribute the
Adobe PostScript language files instead, which can be sent directly
to a printer (or at least a well-known scheme for printing)?
|>PDF fails more frequently than
|>anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly.
|Of course, why would you feed PDF to a printer? (OK, lets ignore PS 3).
Because PDF is presented as a method of doing printing in a much more
portable manner. Because PDF is understood as being a print file format.
One sends print files to printers. The same reason that a showpage
command is permitted in Adobe EPSF.
|And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while
|printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF.
That is because, in accordance with your comments above, most of the
people do not know that PDF is not printable and requires local conversion
to printable form, probably Adobe PostScript language files in accordance
with the local printer type and language level. For portability reasons,
if the site has even one level 1 Adobe PostScript printer to which a print
job may directed or redirected, then the language needs level 1.
|>As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's fonts for Adobe.
|What? How does it do that? It is almost as easy to steal fonts from PDF than from PDF.
|PDF is an output format that removes the
|programmatic aspects of PS (which lead to problems with clone PS interpreters)
|the result is smaller and easier to interrpret (does not require a full PS interpreter).
One of the functions of the Adobe Distiller, which is presented as being
part of the Adobe PDF system, is the abstraction of fonts to just the
characters actually used and the removal of the resizing information;
effectively, this destroys the font for any other purpose.
|>Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I am
|>aware of.
Please, note that I said Ghostview, I did not say gv which runs
on IBM PC compatibles nor Ghostscript which underlays Ghostview
and which has handled PDF for sometime.
|While I never use it, I understand recent versions do.
|>PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by
|>cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as military
|>munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissions
|>(e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China).
|What? The compression schemes are described in detail so you
|can undo them. You can password protect the files, but with a low grade
|scheme that any government has the resources to break. I have never
|heard of such complaints. (Some unethical types on the net
|supply code to break PDF encryption - or provide an online service
|to do it for you - so you can print and alter PDF files that the author
|did not want you to print, alter or plagerize).
I understand the difference between compression and cryptography, how
they interact and how, at times, compression may be used as a `poor
person's encryption.' I meant encryption when I mentioned that PDF
are frequently encrypted. Some of those governments do not accept
even PDF's level of encryption. The poor ethics of others is not
part of this issue.
|>time. And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which
|>are only Adobe PostScript language level 1. These printers are not
|>going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for you,
|>Adobe or any one else.
|We are talking about PDF here, and while you can certainly generate PDF from
|PS level II code, that does not mean you need a PS level II printer to print it - at all!
|The Acrobat Reader can print to anything that has a working printer driver.
Please read the following carefully and closely.
Not every computer in the world is a IBM or Apple PC compatible.
Not every operating system in the world is IBM or Apple compatible.
Printer vendors seldom supply conversion programs (what you call
a printer driver above) for anything but an IBM or Apple PC
compatible computer which is running a Microsoft, IBM or Apple
operating system.
Adobe does not supply Distiller or Acrobat Reader for many of
these systems.
Adobe does not supply open source for Distiller or Acrobat Reader.
People are not going to buy such systems just to print PDF.
In all the outputs from Adobe Acrobat Reader conversions to
Adobe PostScript language files which I have read, even when
level 1 output was requested or the file declared that it
was level 1 Adobe PostScript language, I found level 2 elements
in a path that would be executed on a level 1 display or printer
hence the file was actually level 2 which would fail on such a
display or printer.
|>I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to
|>Adobe PostScript language files. Until there are converters as
|>competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostScript
|>language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1
|>language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PDF
|>instead of DVI.
|This is a separate issue. It is in fact not clear that TeX -> PDF is now or
|will be a viable alternative to TeX -> DVI. But none of the issues you
|or Hans have raised show anything but your lack of knowledge about Acrobat -
|not anything to do with why PDF may or may not be a good target language.
|>|Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf?
|> There does not seem to be much there:
|Fix your news reader or news server than. Although, it is definitely not as
|swamped with the volume of comp.text.tex No long flame wars :-)
The site's news reader is not one of my support functions.
Bad PDF files and SGI Irix and Linux support issues give
me more than enough to do.
|>|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf
|> If you want this to be read, then put it up as an
|> Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it
|> generally can be read.
|Absolutely not. PS is a poor distribution format. And if you are interested
|in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Reader.
Adobe PostScript is a better, not a worse, portable distribution
format. Legally, I can not install Acrobat Reader---I have to
obtain legal approval of its license from our legal department.
I have obtained already permission for xpdf and ghostview; that
should have been sufficient. Why can not you provide at least
a PDF file that works with the open source converters?
You were the one that suggested I read that file. I made the
attempt. It is now your problem to provide a solution. I
suggested one: provide an Adobe PostScript language version.
|> Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file:
|># xpdf pdf_from.pdf
|>xpdf version 0.7a
|>Copyright © 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg
|>Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table...
|>Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null)
|>Error: Couldn't read page catalog
|># pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps
|>Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition--
|(1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII!
You can keep your insults to yourself.
If you can not understand why this is an insult,
then you have even more problems than I have
come to understand from your other postings.
BIG CLUE---WWW transfers are binary.
|(2) Get a decent PDF reader.
I did. You get a PDF maker that works.
|>|Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page:
|>|http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/
|> I tried it. I fail to see how it helps. I did see that it also
|> has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WWW sites
|> have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' edge
|> software in order to use the material. Which is without
|> consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capacities.
|> For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be usable
|> by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers. If nothing else, then provide
|> a text only button and a separate set of pages. If not, then,
|> for example, provide alt= tags for images.
|I'll have to ask Donald to rewrite his web site in plain ASCII (or EBCDIC?)
ASCII is the correct character set for html.
|Regards, Berthold.
|Y&Y, Inc. http://www.YandY.com/news.htm mailto:[log in to unmask]
Randolph J. Herber, [log in to unmask], +1 630 840 2966, CD/CDFTF PK-149F,
Mail Stop 318, Fermilab, Kirk & Pine Rds., PO Box 500, Batavia, IL 60510-0500,
USA. (Speaking for myself and not for US, US DOE, FNAL nor URA.) (Product,
trade, or service marks herein belong to their respective owners.)
|
