Hello, friends. The following lines are written by someone whose LaTeX3 knowledge (and let alone TeX in general) is very limited. Nevertheless, I'd like to share some thoughts on the GUI subject. :) I too believe separation is possible, as long as the contract between layers is well-established. Seeing Frank's diagrams on his papers and keynotes, we can learn that the L3 team is aiming at making this contract to be fulfilled. I'm not a fan of GUI's since IMHO you might end up damaging two things at once: your presentation layer and the underlying language. Anyway, I'm probably biased :) but I'm concerned on how the mapping between them would happen. To quote two principles of compiler design that I think important to the discussion: 1. a compiler must preserve the meaning of the program to be compiled. 2. a compiler must somehow enhance the program to be compiled. A direct mapping from a graphical model to a code implementation is very interesting, but we might end up with a poor generated code, and this might compromise the whole project IMHO. :( I'm talking from a bad experience I had with biblatex styles and a GUI I wrote. Everything was fine at first, but suddenly, the generated code was a delicious but indigestible spaghetti. Of course, in a perfect world we would have an optimization box (aka the EG box :)) that would enhance the model and provide the "right" way of doing things. That's why I'd favour templating instead of a full GUI thingy like LyX. :) I have a couple of systems that export things to LaTeX and the way I do this is via templating. Roughly speaking, you merge data with model and get the document. Along these lines, we could have a n-layered templating framework, with one template for each layer of "data" and with a well-established interface between them. Maybe a hybrid tool that allows users fill the blanks while relying on templates is a good way of making people more close to L3: customers get what they want and a good code is available. :) But that's just my humble opinion. :) Maybe if you could provide some sketches on what you were thinking, we could work on them. Cheers, Paulo Em 27-01-2014 16:02, Sean Allred escreveu: > Hello everybody, > > I recently asked a question on TeX.SX about potential graphical > interfaces for document authors/designers with the new layering system > of LaTeX3, but Joseph pointed out that it was probably more suited for > this list. I reproduce it below: > >> With the separation of document authorship, design, and >> implementation, is a graphical tool for the end-user within reach? >> >> LyX tries to do this today, but LaTeX2e is not well-designed for such >> an approach. In essence, this is what LaTeX3 tries to fix: authors >> must not be concerned with how their document looks in contest with >> the actual content of their work. While LaTeX2e did successfully >> separate markup from implementation, it could not cleanly separate the >> *design* from its implementation (and everyone and their mother has a >> word to say about design---this isn't going to change). The layers of >> LaTeX3 are designed to separate the implementation/coding from the >> design from the content. The amazing work so far on LaTeX3 is proof >> enough that many people believe this separation is possible---myself >> included. >> >> Given this ideal of separation, will it be feasible for there to be >> environments in which to author and design LaTeX documents in a way >> that will put the power of LaTeX and `expl3` in high demand? > > So there you have it---given that the entire LaTeX3 system (looking also > at `xtemplate`) seems to be going toward an system that has entirely > different interfaces for more well-defined roles, has a truly graphical > front-end (*not* a front-end such as LyX) been brought up? > > The `expl3` underworkings of the system must still be used directly as > text---it doesn't make sense any other way---but there should be no > reason an author should see this. The simplicity of `xtemplate`s > interface would allow for easy parsing, and graphical interfaces to > objects/templates might be feasible. > > I think that this, if done properly and with a learning curve that is > more like a learning *flat-line*, will put forth a lot of demand for > LaTeX systems and `expl3` programmers, who in turn will create more and > more modules that are available for use over CTAN in some standardized > format (a la TDS). > > Thanks for your time, > Sean >