Sebastian writes this is the whole point of the argument, surely?! to get the contrib stuff OUT of that state, Having followed Michael's url and read this treatise on religious or secular program development I'm confused. You seem to be asking for a change from the current model to a linux style `bazaar' model. But I thought that was what we had now? The core latex code is essentially stable apart from fixing the occasional more or less obscure bug that comes up. All new development work (on latex2) is in classes and packages, which means that principally it is `bazaar style' and happening in contrib. As in the linux model where you have some distrution like redhat or debian that periodically scoops up a set of tools and makes a distribution out of it the same happens for latex. The point is though that _you_ do it with texlive it is not done by the latex3 project (who I suppose are supposed to be doing Linus impersonations in this model). > and into a mode where everyone knows that > "natbib" is part of "latex level 2". So is all that's needed is a note sent to the tex implementers list saying `please include all the files that are installed by the texlive `recommended' option? I suspect that that is _not_ what is needed, people, including people claiming they want to fight in a bazaar really want a set of files that gets official blessing. To do blessings you need a cathedral (a fount may help as well). > but our bishops dont have the resources to maintain the fabric; which is where we came in.... David